Kenneth Pomeranz’s book arguing that the Great Divergence between the West and China only began around the 1700s/early 1800s has been such a damaging thesis (rectified by subsequent lit). In reality, it started in the 1500s because Western Europe didn’t suffer from steppe nomads
Kenneth Pomeranz’s book arguing that the Great Divergence between the West and China only began around the 1700s/early 1800s has been such a damaging thesis (rectified by subsequent lit). In reality, it started in the 1500s because Western Europe didn’t suffer from steppe nomads
Iberian travellers had a relatively positive impression of China into the 1600s and the early Qing years I think (please correct me if I’m wrong here), but Iberia itself had started falling behind to the Dutch and especially the English/British.
@blob_watcher Even by Roman standards the Chinese were particularly oppressive, centralized and poor outside the capital region
@blob_watcher Arguably China was still the economic center of the world in the 1700s
@blob_watcher if memory serves Samir Amin echoes this for lefty "Europeans were never *that* much farther ahead" reasons, I didn't know where it came from
@blob_watcher Pomeranz's theory is ill-conceived, but attributing the Great Divergence solely to the nomads is also narrow visioned. Western Euro is not a monolith. England and Holland transitioned to agrarian capitalism from late 1500s and left the rest in the dust. Such is Minor Divergence
@blob_watcher Its called the great divergence cause the industrial revolution made it great Before that it didnt really matter china never built ships or went through the infantry revolution or abandoned capitalism after the song fell
Earlier. 14th Century. Thats when the divergence began. The 15th century explosion out was the result of what had happened a century earlier. Look how ready Western European kingdoms were to explore (take advantage of) the New World and Orient post Columbus and da Gama. It happened immediately post their well publicised expeditions. Everything had to be in place for that to happen. Putting it a century later privileges the already privileged concept of the renaissance, which I think is unnecessary
@blob_watcher There's no evidence China knew the earth was round before European contact. Their math and science wasn't that advanced
@blob_watcher You could say this is why Asia stagnated in some ways (I guess if you say no more Chinese treasure voyages due to fear of the steppe) but no reason the steam engine or automated cotton spinning couldn't have developed in theory under say Qing rule.
@blob_watcher The divergence began with, or rather signaled by, the invention of verge-and-foliot escapement, enabling “Franks” to build practical and reliable dry clocks. Circa 1300.
@blob_watcher The so-called Great Divergence started with the emergence of Sumerian cuneiform & Egyptian hierogylphics in the 4th millennium BC. The "West" is just an offshoot of Middle Eastern culture, & benefitted by close exchanges between multiple cradles of civilization over millennia.
@blob_watcher Have you heard of the European Revolution? It provides an alternative explanation for the great divergence. Extremely heavy use of the death penalty in MW Europe acted as an accidental eugenics program from 1100-1750. Euros, especially NW Euros got better/smarter/more honest etc.
@blob_watcher Western Europe was probably richer than China by the late Middle Ages.
@blob_watcher I agree that Steppe nomads incursion was a key factor. But Europe also had steppe nomads incursion more seriously (large population replacement) in ancient time. It could be just a factor of luck (for some reasons, weaker incursions)
@blob_watcher I’m Chinese (no scholar though, just what I know about our history) and I would agree that China started declining around 1500s, coinciding with the Renaissance. But the decline was slow enough that it wasn’t apparent till 1800s.
@blob_watcher Europe literally is a backwater without China, and it looks like it will return to that designation in the next 20 years. No step nomads but y'all have Jews 😂😂😂 Stop the kanging
The Great Divergence really kicked off with the Renaissance. It created a culture that celebrated bold, unusual thinkers and gave them places to work and share ideas. Printing, humanism, and wealthy patrons helped make inventors and artists into respected figures instead of outsiders. On top of earlier European advantages — smaller families and more independence (the Hajnal marriage pattern), strong local institutions, constant rivalry between states, and being free from constant steppe invasions — this set up an environment where creativity and new ideas thrived. That’s why so much genius ended up concentrated in a relatively small corner of Europe, just as Murray’s research shows.
@blob_watcher Europe didn't suffer from steppe nomads?? Did you think the Turks were native to Anatolia? Then besides that many barbarians that invaded Europe were themselves fleeing the steppe nomads
@blob_watcher China defeated the Dutch, Spain, Portugal and Russia in the late Ming to early Qing timeframe but by then it was already behind. The divergence started in the early Ming but did not become fatal until mid 19th century industrial revolution.
@blob_watcher Also cuz of easier oceanic access + the riches of two untamed continents
@blob_watcher China in the early modern era had a lot of books; they just kept falling out of print.
@blob_watcher The Europeans had lots of stone castles which serves as military bases and refuges for civilians. The sheer number and areas they were located would dramatically slow the Mongols. China had walled cities but not quite the defense in depth to defend against nomadic invasions.
@blob_watcher Steppe nomads were completely wiped out by Ming in 1300s. Some stayed as Chinese. The rest are driven to Siberia and they have never became strong again.
@blob_watcher it's crazy how the narrative surrounding steppe nomads on this platform changed in a matter of weeks. they went from "we wuz khanz" to "steppe nomads were backward parasites who destroyed civilization and human progress."
@blob_watcher .@nfergus got that one right in his 1st chapter of “Civilization: The West and The Rest“. Nobody would guess in A.D. 1400 that between China and England, over the next 500 years, England would catch up to, pass, and leave far behind the eastern behemoth.
@blob_watcher What kind of reasoning is that? The Ming dynasty flourished in the 1500s so it could hardly have started there. Then under Manchu rule, China remained a global economic heavyweight. And Western Europe had its own problems, obviously.
@blob_watcher I think the statements are slightly different Divergence is about per capita. China continued to be economically dominant for a while afterwards due to huge populations